For the Love of Horses: An Interview with Tim Hayes
by Gina McKnight
Archived from the May 2025 Issue of Florida Equine Athlete
No duplication without permission.
In March, it was snowing in Vermont. That’s when Tim Hayes and I
scheduled a phone conversation about horses and his new book. In 2015, I
interviewed Tim about his first book Riding Home ~ The Power of Horses to
Heal for True Cowboy Magazine. I have followed Tim ever since and
appreciate his genuine insight to horses. Now, with the release of his second
book, Horses, Humans, and Love: Powerful Lessons from the Herd―Compassion,
Self-Worth, True Partnering, Heartfelt Parenting, I find Tim continuing to
promote compassionate horsemanship. Recommended reading, Tim’s books have been
endorsed by Robert Redford, Temple Grandin, and more.
Welcome, Tim!
GM: Tim, it’s good to connect with you after many years! Congratulations
on your success and your new book. Let’s start at the beginning...
TH: Well, I just turned 80 years old this month, which is a shock to me and to
most people who know me. And looking back, I got on my first horse when I was
47. I grew up in New York City, in Greenwich Village and I went into the TV
commercial business. I loved making movies and commercials and I thought I'd do
it forever. In 1992 I went to visit some friends who lived in Idaho and they
introduced me to a family who had a big cattle ranch. I had never been on a
horse and they put me on a horse; my life changed forever. There was something
about being on a horse and it just felt so right. I just wanted to know as much
as I could about horses, so I kept going back to the ranch and they taught me
how to be a cowboy, they taught me how to rope, ride, brand, fix fences, and I
loved being a part-time cowboy for a few years.
GM: A good start, I would say – a horseman’s dream to enjoy time on a
working ranch. It must have been difficult returning to New York. How did you
merge your love for horses with city life?
TH: I was living in New York, and they opened up a new equestrian center. I got
a job teaching people how to ride Western. Most of the people in New York were
riding in English, and I started learning something about natural horsemanship,
which is the way that people now refer to what they used to call horse
whispering, and basically natural horsemanship is based on what's natural
for horses. Not what’s natural for humans. What's natural for humans is we
think we have to be the boss of the horse and to get them to do what we want,
we have to force them and we have to intimidate him. You’re taught why your
horse will move forward. You're supposed to kick him and if he doesn't go, then
kick harder. Well, that works, but it doesn't do much for the relationship with
how the horse feels about you.
What natural horsemanship does is it teaches you how to communicate with
a horse in his language, which is body language. Communicate with your horse
and then it makes for a much better relationship, far superior horse training,
and it's more fun. It's safer for both. I began teaching, then became
fascinated by the relationship between humans and horses, leading me to Equine
Therapy. That's what we talked about ten years ago.
GM: Yes, I remember. Your first book helped me with my own horses. Even
seasoned riders can glean something valuable from your books, especially the
power to heal. Have you seen people heal firsthand?
TH: We were fascinated with the fact that horses were really being able
to be like adjunct therapists to people with all kinds of wounds; people with
PTSD, children with autism, alcoholics, drug addicts, and people in divorce
situations. The difference between
horses and humans, and why they're so good at relationships is because of the
difference of our species. Horses are what we call the ultimate prey animal. They
don't eat meat, they don't kill things. If they feel like they're in danger, they
run away. Humans are the ultimate predators. We kill to eat food and have
survived by killing our enemies. We kill people who threaten us and we even
kill people who disagree with us. Horses have been on the planet for over 50
million years. They have survived by running away from their enemies and
getting along with other horses in order to live in the safety of herds.
Humans have only been on the planet for a little more than 300,000 years.
We have survived by killing our enemies most of which have been other humans.
So I thought maybe horses could teach humans something about relationships.
GM: It’s a fascinating study. Of course, nurturing relationships with
every living being is important to our success. Could you explain what you
learned, and how you gathered ideas to develop the premise for your new book?
TH: I learned about the way horses have relationship with other horses.
Once they're out of danger, they have to stay with other horses to be safe. If
you're a horse by yourself and a predator comes along, you got one chance to
stay alive because it's you and the predator. But if you're with another horse,
you have a 50/50 chance. You have a better chance of staying alive because the predator
might eat the other horse. And if you're in a herd of twenty horses, you have a
much better chance because there are nineteen other prey animals that could get
eaten before you. But in order to be in these groups with other horses, they
have to get along. They can't argue and fight and get kicked out of their herd
because then they'll be very vulnerable. So they developed and always treat
each other with what I call black belt social skills. They led me to
redefine the concept of love. Love is not what I thought it was, which was
romance, sex, and having a personal love. Love are all the qualities horses
embody to get along with each other and feel safe - like tolerance, acceptance,
patience, understanding, kindness, honesty, trust, respect, forgiveness and compassion.
These are the qualities that make love really what it is, and now it's become
how I see myself in my relationships. If I want to think I'm loving, am I
inviting any of those equine qualities? Because that, I believe, is how we
express love.
GM: How has this impacted your own relationships?
TH: I started questioning my own relationships and I came up a little short
with how I thought I was being so loving, and that I could really improve from
what I've learned about horses. But the biggest moment came when someone said,
“Do you love yourself?” And I thought, “Well, what do you mean? Do I love
myself?” I thought it sounded kind of conceited. Well, the fact is, is that
I didn't really love myself because there were times when I didn't think I was
feeling adequate or I was enough. You know, you have that feeling that some
people have, like they don't feel like they're enough or they're inadequate.
So, I asked myself some questions - Where did I learn how to love myself?
Did I learn it in college? Did I learn in books? The answer to that turned
out from my mother and father. But if they didn't know how to love themselves,
how could they teach me that I should? It is something that's been lacking in
our human species for many, many years. More and more people have this lack of
self-love, and that in order to have a loving relationship with a partner or
husband or wife or a parent or a child, you have to love yourself first. Horses
don't wake up and think, I wonder if I'm a good enough. Horses are
already content with themselves so they can have good relationships with other
horses.
GM: I guess I’ve never thought about it from that perspective, but it
makes sense. Besides this profound concept, what would you like readers to take
away from your book?
TH: So the big take away - I think what it boils down to in this new book
is I want people to take another look at themselves and their relationships
with humans and question what they think love is. Have a deeper look, if they
can see ways to love themselves, and if not, got some help. Because unless
people learn to love themselves and teach their children how to love
themselves, we're going to continue with humans always feeling different. Like
when a black horse sees another horse, he immediately feels safer. It doesn’t
matter if it's a white horse, brown horse, dapple horse, or paint horse. But
when a human sees another human, you don't necessarily feel safe. If the person
is a different color, a different religion, a different ethnic group, a
different socio-economical group they might not feel safe at all – and that's
crazy because we're all the same. The way I found that out was by talking to
people. When people open up and share what their thinking and feeling on their insides
and not with comparing themselves with the superficial differences of the other
people's outsides...they find out that, just like horses, we’re all the same.
If we can get along with each other, maybe we can help humanity.
GM: We’re more emotionally tethered to our own beliefs, I guess. But what
you want people to learn from your book is to learn how to love themselves so
we can be part of a herd that bonds for safety and community.
TH: Exactly. And I'll go one further, I want people to realize that, like
horses, we're not different. We're all the same species. We're the human
species, as opposed to the equine species. We're just two different animals. We
speak in English, horses speak in body language, but we're both species. We're
predators. Horses are prey. And if people continue to see themselves with the
superficial differences of race, religion, money, nationality, you know, if a
person from China thinks they're different from a person from Ohio, they're
not. That's what I hope people will take away from the book.
GM: Yes, it’s practical guidance for everyone, including dynamic insights
as to why we need to accept our differences, even though we are the same. Are
you still involved with horses now? I remember you had a favorite horse,
Austin.
TH: My wife, Stephanie, who I’ve been married to for 13 years, is a horse
woman. She specializes in something called Working Equitation. I don't
know if they have it in Ohio yet, but it's a very popular new discipline which
combines dressage with working cattle. It's fascinating. It's a lot of fun.
She's got about ten horses. The horse I started out with and had his whole life
was Austin. I wrote a chapter about Austin in my first book Riding Home.
He lived to 32 years and that was three years ago. He finally passed away from
old age. I didn't really have the motivation to start riding again, I didn't
really feel like it. So, now I pretty much take it easy since I don't have the
same strength and energy as I used to have. I'm around horses, but don't ride
anymore. I support my wife and her endeavors. I never thought I'd hear dressage
and cowboys in the same sentence.
GM: Intriguing and something to watch! It’s always fun to watch a new
discipline evolve. What are your thoughts on the current BLM situation?
TH: I'm a huge fan of the BLM, what they've done to save the wild horses. As a
matter of fact, ten years ago I spent a week in a big prison with something
called the Wild Horse Inmates of Prison Program, where they have inmates
who work with horses. That's a terrific program. When the inmates domesticate
the horses, the horses can put up for adoption. They save the horses from
slaughter. There’s always been controversy out West with the wild horses – they
overstep their boundaries, onto ranches and cattle feed and all that. But I am
a huge believer in saving all the horses. Anything that the BLM can do to
preserve horses, I'm a big fan of that. I know it's very controversial.
GM: Can you provide guidance for beginner riders on how they can apply
your perspectives on horsemanship?
TH: It starts with a horse - not on their back, but on the ground. The horse
sees us as a predator. Horses know if we've had McDonald's for lunch, they can
smell that we eat meat. So they're not too excited to be close to us. But the
more the horse looks at us, he sees that we're not threatening him. A horse can
tell everything you're thinking and feeling from your body language. Even if
it's very subtle in our eyes, they can see what's going on inside. You can't
lie to a horse. If you want to pretend that you're confident, the horse won't
believe it unless you are confident. The horse will pick that up in a minute.
So what happens is, the next thing a horse wants to do is to be with another
horse because they'll feel safer. But it can also be with a person. Call it a
herd of two, a herd of a human with a horse. And when that happens, the horses becomes
very accepting and the person can feel that. They can feel that acceptance and
it feels incredible. For some people it can be the first time they feel like
they're being seen for who they really are because they are being who they
really are. And it feels really good. So I think the thing that I've seen the
most in all my workings with people and horses is that horses help people to
feel good about themselves.
GM: Do you believe there is a horse breed that is more intuitive with
humans?
TH: I have to say that being a cowboy and starting on a Quarter Horse and
having one for more than 20 years, I love Quarter Horses. I love their
intelligence. I love their gentleness, I love their athleticism. So I have to
say if I had to pick a breed it would be the Quarter Horse. Austin was the
horse who demonstrated horse human relationships. He was the love of my life.
GM: That's a good memory with Austin and it's special. I wish everyone
could experience having a lifetime horse.
TH: If anybody wants to know more about me or see pictures of Austin or see
some videos of me working with him, it's all on my website, with all of my
books which is www.hayesisforhorses.com
Connect with Tim...
Books
by Tim Hayes
Riding Home: The Power of Horses to Heal, Introduction by Robert Redford (2016)
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